R - Good morning, Socrates! Here I am to continue our conversation. You asked me if I am convinced that "Humans in their current state, which is a state driven by ignorance, greed, and lust, are hopeless." No, I don't think so. Man's life depends on the circumstances in which he has to swim since his conception. For example: I am told that you "did your military service during the Peloponnesian War and distinguished yourself in three campaigns". You are a great philosopher and a wise man. Under what circumstances did you participate in a war between brotherly peoples?
S - War was inevitable, for in the Peloponnesian War, it was Athens (where I was born) and its allies against Sparta. The two biggest powers of Greece were inevitably going to fight. And that was the most important war for the ancient Greek because it decided which of the two greatest Greek powers was going to rule the other. It was a contest of who had the greater strength. But also, I was in the army in the beginning, when the war was still popular and popular people in their prime joined. After you saw more and more of the horrors of war, its effect on people was much worse.
R - This is Tucydes' thesis: "whenever a hegemonic power is challenged by an emerging power, war is almost always inevitable". However, Tucidede's thesis does not contemplate the inevitability of recruiting a philosopher and scholar.
S -That is a very good point.
But I would argue that a great commander and leader is also just as necessary to have than a scholar. I do not know if Athens would have been able to survive without such a brilliant leader as Pericles, who lead Athens to victory over Sparta for so long.
The fact that a scholar was also a warrior should not be seen as surprising.
At the time, every man was expected to fight in his prime. I was no different from other Greek men of my time.
R - You were different from others as a Greek. Were you a scholar, could you advise your countrymen on the risk of defeat for Athens and the advantage of avoiding war and encouraging the opportunity for Athens and Sparta to grow in peace
S - Yes, I tried to tell the Athenian people that their desire for more and more power would lead to nothing but war and destruction. And there is a famous play called The Clouds written by Aristophanes, where I was the main character and made out to be a crazy person who only thought about money and power. They didn't really want to hear it, for greed is a hard desire to control - as it is with any vice.
R - In the end, Athens lost the war to Sparta. For what reason? More soldiers involved, better weapons, better strategy, better commanders, better drive to win?
S -It is a mixture of all those things.
Mostly, I would say, it was because Sparta was better at making alliances with other Greek cities. They also had a stronger will to fight than the Athenians.
And while better commanders do help, I would say that Athens was stronger in the beginning with their brilliant commanders. I would say that the strength of Sparta wasn't in their commanders, but in all of their soldiers. Their training was extremely rigorous, which made them incredibly well coordinated. This gave Sparta the advantage over most other Greek city states because the soldiers would fight in harmony.
R - And this because Athens was under a democratic government while Sparta was under an autocracy?
S - Yes, I would definitely say that democracy tends to not lead to good decisions.
Democracy is based on popularity. For example, it is the same in our modern nation's. If you go against the popular decision (which is usually the selfish one), then you will be called a traitor and exiled.
And in times of war, especially, democracy leads to terrible decisions - for the popular decision (or the people's wishes) will usually be the selfish decision. For the selfish decision is always easier and more desired.
R - In our modern nation, you said. I don't understand. You and I, we're at about 700 AE... I suppose Athens is still the most modern nation. Do you know more modern ones?
S - Yes, you are correct - we are in the year 400BC. I was actually using "modern day" as just a figure of speech.
Athens is the "most modern nation" of that time, I suppose. There are other Greek city-states that could be considered more democratic than Athens, but they are more or less similar.
I am not aware of any nation or city states that have an advanced way of thinking about a government, nor can I think of any that have a better form of government than Athens. That is, of course, except for the philosopher kings - like me.
R - 400BC ... Did you met him?
S - Him? Do you mean Pericles? I did know him, and he was quite the man. An excellent speaker, especially his great funeral oration. Many thought he was even a better commander and leader than I.
He was probably the biggest figure in the history of Athens, besides me. He was certainly the most popular and well-known, though I am certainly jealous of that.
But why do you ask about him?
R - Because I'm sure you never knew Christ, but you say: BC, that means before Christ. ... I was kidding. Sorry
S - Hahaha, no problem...
I never met Christ, but I am a little envious of him. I heard that he was a great teacher and speaker. That is, if all the stories are true about him.
It certainly makes me reflect on myself a little, seeing someone else who gets such a following and such great stories told about him.
But, after my death, I have realized that a great life is more important than a great story. A good life is its own reward, and the only proof I need that I lived a good life is that I am at peace with myself.
R - If I understand correctly, his political position (favorable to an autocratic regime) was contradictory to his willingness to fight as a defender of Athenian democracy.
S - That is correct.
Pericles was incredibly clever and a great leader. He understood the people. He knew that the best way to keep such a democratic government was to give the people what they want - which is what he did when he led Athens to war against Sparta.
I would say that this is the main reason he became the greatest leader in the history of Greece.
He was able to keep the Athenian people happy while maintaining control as the head of the government.
I only wish that I had his intelligence, but I do feel that I was the better philosopher.
R - If I understand correctly, his political position (favorable to an autocratic regime) was contradictory to his willingness to fight as a defender of Athenian democracy.
Pericles was incredibly clever and a great leader. He understood the people. He knew that the best way to keep such a democratic government was to give the people what they want - which is what he did when he led Athens to war against Sparta.
I would say that this is the main reason he became the greatest leader in the history of Greece.
He was able to keep the Athenian people happy while maintaining control as the head of the government.
I only wish that I had his intelligence, but I do feel that I was the better philosopher.
R - You say that "He knew that the best way to maintain such a democratic government was to give the people what they wanted - which is what he did when he led Athens to war against Sparta". Now, I was confused. Was Pericles a democrat or a demagogue, giving the people what they wanted?
S - He was a perfect mix of both, I would say.
He definitely used the power of the people to maintain his control as head of state - he knew what the people wanted and gave it to them. A demagogue, as I would say.
But he was also a great and wise leader. In his case, the line between demagogue and wise leader was very subtle - very thin, I would argue. But he was able to achieve a balance between the two.
R - I assumed that demagoguery is the greatest enemy of democracy...
S - Yes, it certainly can be. But the demagogue can also be a great ally to a democracy - in the right hands.
I would say that Pericles was an excellent example of this balance, and his ability to keep both the people and his rivals happy allowed Athens to prosper during his rule.
Thus, I would say, he was certainly a demagogue - but he also helped create a more democratic state. He was a great ally to democracy, in a sense.
R - I understand your reasoning. But to be a great leader of Athens he would have pursued, with greed, to achieve wealth and power, the same practice of all other strong leaders, which can causes the ruin of the human species, no? Pericles was envolved in the war with Sparta, so he is also respnsabile for the Athens defeat.
S - All human beings are responsible in some way for the ruin of the human species. There is no avoiding that.
Yes, he may have made mistakes in his pursuit for a stronger Athens, for a war with Sparta. But this is not enough to make me believe he was a bad leader in general.
One might even argue - even if it's a bit of a stretch - that the Peloponnesian War was actually for the best. The destruction it caused in Greece caused people to eventually realize how stupid it was - and so, that lead to the eventual creation of a more unified and harmonious Greece.
R - And a more vulnerable Greece. You are now 61 years old, Pericles is dead, Sparta has taken power in Athens and is ruled by three tyrants. How do you feel being ruled by tyranny?
S - As a philosopher, I must say that I am against tyranny at all times.
But there are rare exceptions to every rule, and at this point, democracy is over. Greece as I knew her has fallen.
As for being ruled by tyranny, I must say that I am still very optimistic about the future of Greece. And I am very much looking forward to what comes next. I know that when there is tyranny, there is always a revolution, and I am looking forward to participating in that.
R - I hope so. Now I have to go to lunch. Can I invite you to lunch? I know a very good tavern, good quality, convenient prices. Don't worry, I'll pay the bill. Do you prefer fish or meat?
S - I will have fish.
That sounds great. I'll take you up on your offer with one condition-- if I like anything you say at this meal, I will follow you and your ideals for the rest of my life. Deal?
And if I don't like anything you, I'll just leave you alone and continue my quest to promote virtue and fight against tyranny.
R - Agreed.
S - I like this agreement. Let us go. There is a lot we need to discuss during this meal.
And I have quite the hunger today, which has led me to order my favorite - baklava. I hope that is okay with you.
For I do love to eat, especially when it is someone else paying my bill.
I can see this meal has already improved my mood. You are quite the philosopher. I am looking forward to your questions and thoughts throughout the meal, for I am sure to be quite captivated by them.
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